Join with others in following my example, brothers, and take note of those who live according to the pattern we gave you. For, as I have often told you before and now say again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is their shame. Their mind is on earthly things. But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.
Philippians 3:17-21
Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.
1 Corinthians 4:16-18
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.
Colossians 3:1-3
The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear minded and self-controlled so that you can pray.
1 Peter 4:7
Beloved, we are citizens of heaven, and not of this world. We belong to a heavenly kingdom, not the kingdom of this world.
As of late I’ve been feeling quite convicted regarding these passages. It seems as though we, the church in
Do we believe what God has said about our time and our purpose here on earth? If we did, would we spend countless hours sitting in front of an electricity powered piece of plastic and glass? Would we spend these precious hours in life reading empty and worthless pieces of tree with ink on them? Would we pump our ears full of empty and meaningless waves of sound? Would we waste our time rolling plastic cubes and moving little figurines around a piece of cardboard? Would we invest countless hours in our week in order to attain pieces of paper that will help us improve our “quality of life”? Consider what Peter wrote in his second letter to the churches in
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare. Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
2 Peter 3:10-12
All of our pieces of paper and plastic and cardboard are going to be destroyed. What have I done with all of the time that I’ve spent staring at a piece of plastic and glass?! All that time is irredeemable. It’s gone! And it will probably amount to nothing in eternity.
Did you notice the reason that Peter gives for why the Lord appears to be slow in returning? He is patient, not wanting any to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. One reason why all our TVs and RVs and cars and boats and houses and patios and cell phones and computers are still around is because God is waiting for the salvation of lost people. Isn’t it ironic that we, the church in
How we have missed these critical verses which say, “Since everything will be destroyed this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.”
Beloved, our lives ought to be focused on two things and two things alone: God and people. Everything else destined to destruction; All of God’s law is summed up in two commands: Love God and love your neighbor (Matt.
Several times I’ve heard the reasoning, “Well, there’s nothing wrong with spending my time in this particular activity.” Where did we ever get the idea that we should decide how to spend our time by whether it’s wrong or not? We’ve been asking the wrong question! We should not be asking “is this wrong for me to spend my time on?” (negative); we should be asking, “is this the best way to spend my time?” and “is this the right way to spend my time?” (positive). This is a wide application of what Paul is talking about when he says, “Everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial” (1 Cor.
There are two things that are eternal to which we are called to give our lives to: God and people. Jesus life is the perfect example; His whole life, ministry, and mission were centered on his Father and the people he came to save. And his parables tell us to keep watch and to be at work for when he returns.
There’s a subtle lie that has crept into the church’s thinking and it’s called “You need to take time for yourself.” No you don’t. You were called to die to yourself (Mk.
One of the most dangerous statements there is with regard to how we spend our time is this: “God has given us these things for our enjoyment.” It’s true that everything that has been given to us has been given by God. But none of these things was ever meant to distract us from the One who gave them and his purpose for our lives. God hasn’t called us to live a life void of pleasure. But with regards to our time, we, the church in North America, daily trade the greatest pleasure of knowing and living in relationship with God and working for him in people’s lives, for the infinitely inferior things of this world (which by implication are not of the world to come).
Some may suggest that we have been given these things as the means by which we can rest in God. Again, we need to be cautious. Are we satisfied to rest in God alone? Do we expect these things in order to rest? Have we fallen in love with the gifts? Are they distracting us from more meaningful communion with the Giver?
The practical outworking of this truth is far less cut and dry which is probably a reason that we struggle to accept it and live it. This is how I challenge you to apply it:
Spend your life on God and people. Orient everything else in your life around these two. Then what are the temporary things and the means you must use to accomplish God’s purposes for your life? Every waking moment of your life ought to be focused on bringing glory to God by living in relationship with him and with people. It is my conviction that a life lived like this will bring deeper joy and satisfaction than any of the temporary pleasures of the world ever could.
Beloved, endeavor to see the world as God sees it. Just like infrared goggles (used in military) are programmed to let you see only things that give off heat. Put on your eternal perspectacles which enable you to see what emanates with eternal value and what is entirely void of it.
Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
Matthew 6:19-21
12 comments:
Hey, these comments may not be as heated as we're used to, but here they are. I work through messages from top to bottom, so it may be less confusing if you follow my comments that way.
First of all, great verses (from a great book, of course), and I believe the compiliation was alright, except I don't think the last verse (1 Peter) fits with what you're trying to say, or at least you didn't really address that particular verse in your comments. I think you wanted to use the first part of that verse, but you didn't really exegete or comment on that last part. So can you really use that verse? I think you still can, just to say that the end is near, but be careful of that. ;)
Now I think you're getting into a little more trouble when you write about reading books, listening to music, playing games with others and earning diplomas. The verse you tried to use (2 Peter) has nothing to do with what we should do, but rather who we should be. You've somehow equated ungodliness with doing different things in the world, but I don't believe that's exactly right. There are definitely things we shouldn't be doing, but there are things we can do in this world, especially with the right motive. Take learning for instance, whether through reading or college. If we learn for our own pride and well-being, that's the wrong motive. I, on the other hand, would rather not be in college for a degree, but I am there because I have felt called there, and I realize that the plans God has for me requires a degree in Christian ministry, as much as I didn't want to go to college (I think you know all this). That's the right motive, and I'm doing the right thing in this instance.
Now you've got one thing right here: we shouldn't be deciding how to spend out time by whether it's right or wrong. If that was the main point of your post, good work... now we just have to cut away what's not true, and the invalid arguments. For example, I just went through Romans 7, and I don't see how you came up with the second part of your statement:
"(the voice of sin) also tells us to spend our time doing what merely doesn't break the rules"... maybe you didn't get that from Rom. 7, but then that still needs to be proven. Your use of the passage from 1 Cor. 6.... well, it's plain horrible! Paul's referring to sexual immorality there, and he's playing off a saying of the Corinthians... I didn't even need to look that one up. I had to look up the passage from 1 Cor. 10, but then I found that the context actually argues against some of your points! Here are the following verses: "Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it." Gotta deal with the context. :)
Alright, going though the lies... I don't agree with your first one, take a look at Matt. 14:13,22-23. Jesus took time for himself. As for the second lie, what happens when I change the emphasis? "Come to me all of you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you REST". When we are weary and burdened, God isn't going to burden us further! He's going to give us rest. Here's a quote to chew on: "The will of God will not take us where the grace of God cannot go". He'll give us strength to do the things He wants us to do, but we're not Superman!
And here I want to look at a possibility... I'm not saying it's true, I'm saying we should look at it. If you'll recall, Henry Cloud was quite suprised to discover that God's "Plan A" for helping us grow is through other people, not God himself. What if God's "Plan A" for giving rest to his people is through his creation? Just something to think about.
I thought the "Big Lie" was "Appearance is reality"? Maybe you could explain what you mean by what you wrote... maybe you wrote up your own Big Lie, and that's cool, lol. Or maybe you meant to connect the two.
Here's a bit of irony connected with your statement, "If you want to have fellowship with a close and intimate friend... then just do it!" Yet we (me and you) currently have to use the things of this world to have fellowship: Facebook, this blog, email, even the telephone and the postage system are all things of this world.
On to your application: I couldn't agree more with what you have stated here. I wonder if you've tried to apply your points further then they should've gone... but everyone shouldn't go on the defensive with your post (if anyone think that's what I'm trying to do, you should read my comments again). Rather, everyone should be asking themselves if they are using every bit of time for God's glory, and seeking God's will in this area. You don't necessarily have to throw something out... think of how God wants to use it!
The first thing that strikes me from these passages is balance. Particularly with 2 Peter. God is patient, but He is also coming when unexpected. The two go together. I often struggle with this – we’re called to witness to the ends of the earth, and sometimes I think that this responsibility of evangelizing the world has fallen onto my shoulders. I forget that, A: it is God who is doing the work, not me – I am not Superwoman. B: It refocuses my thoughts from me and what I should be doing (in a negative sense) toward others and the realization that the Body works as a team to witness. I’ve been thinking about this as I’ve been having “God-talks” with a friend/co-worker who is asking a lot of questions – deep ones – that make me think and sometimes get help for (because I don’t possess all the answers). As for the temporary vs. eternal, yeah, seeing kids wandering around with a perpetual iPod stuck in their ears and hearing about some of the trash they watch on tv not only sickens me, but it saddens me – especially within the church. Yet, the temporary things are not inherently evil; it’s what we do with them. Take, for example, my car. I can be tempted to hang onto it too tightly, or to take pride in it. Or, I can loan it to people in need, give people rides home, and react calmly when a fellow coworker say the 3-ton truck dinged the door. I agree with the positive view idea; God and people are important and prioritizing is so necessary or our lives get frittered away. On the days I have off from work, I go to bed without the same satisfaction of a job well done. There is something in doing what doesn’t always seem fun but gives us true joy. Yet, I also agree with the other comment: down time is needed. Having lived with a “type A,” hard-working dad and a similar mom, I see the need for rest is not an option. Yes, people will probably abuse this “need for rest” to become lazy, just as we can justify many things. Yet because of our tendency to justify our actions, I submit that we should not throw out the principle. There is a difference between “rest” and “sloth.” God rested. Fools are lazy. That’s what I use my Sabbath for. Defining what rest looks like is tricky too, but seeing as it’s past my bedtime, I daresay it’s time for me to get some of it. In defense of rest, I find that I am sharper mentally and in a healthier emotional state and all around better condition to treat others as I should and think through the deeper issues with my coworker. I have many more thoughts, but my arm is cramping, and as stated before, I should really hit the hay. Thanks for the thought-provoking post!
Jason! Thank you very much for your comments! They were very challenging, and you know that much of this topic’s discussion began in my mind as a result of the talks we’ve had. I’d like to continue the discussion and interact with your comments a little bit.
You mentioned that 1 Peter 4:7 didn’t seem to fit my message and was weak because it was out of context. I am actually very familiar with the context. In 4:3 prior to Peter’s statement he says, “For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do – living in debauchery, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry” (emphasis mine). He then talks about how the pagans think it strange that the believers no longer do these things, and reminds the believers that the pagans will give an account for their abuse. And then he pops the statement in verse 7: “The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear minded and self controlled so that you can pray.” He goes on after to talk about how the believers should treat one another and administer God’s grace to one another. I included this passage to say very simply, time is short. But Peter preludes this saying, “You have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do”! Time is clearly an emphasis here, especially what we do in the time we have here on earth. Are we living according to evil human desires or are we living according to God’s will (vs. 2) – which is the example of Christ (vs. 1)? Are we living selfish lives of sin (vs. 3) or are we loving others and administering God’s grace to others (vs. 8-11)? Peter is clearly contrasting two ways of life and emphasizing that we ought to spend all of the time we have left on the latter way.
You also stated that 2 Peter 3:10-12, which talks about the end where the earth will be destroyed by fire, refers “not to what we should, but who we should be”. What the passage actually says is: “you ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming”. Living a holy life is just as much an action that we do as it is something that we are. With regards to living holy, being and doing are inseparable. Even if Peter was only talking about being holy it would require action on our parts to be people of integrity. But it’s even clearer than that! He says that we are to speed its coming. This is most certainly an action! How do we know? Because, the reason the Day of the Lord is delayed has to do with people that are lost. And helping them come to repentance is definitely something that we do! So in light of the truth that the Day of the Lord is coming where everything will be burned up with fire, we ought to be active for God’s kingdom hastening it’s finality, not watching TV.
Along the same vein you said, “There are definitely things we shouldn’t be doing, but there are things we can do in this world, especially with the right motive.” You then went on to describe how motive determines whether a “non-immoral” action should be done. I’ve heard it said a lot that it all comes down to motive and motivation. Well, I challenge that! First of all, in determining how we spend our time, motive must precede action, always. Yet we often have it backwards. We have things we want to spend our time on and then we dream up ways that we can glorify God with them. BACKWARDS! We should have it in our minds first to glorify God, second, how he wants us to glorify him, and lastly practically how should we act or apply it –what means we will use.
And there is another problem with having motive as the determining factor. By stressing the motive, you are making yourself the standard by which we measure what is a valuable use of time and what isn’t. Guess what!? Our motives are relative to our maturity. Example: A brand spanking new Christian can have a desire to please and glorify God with what he does and be spending all of his time doing something that has little or no eternal value. No. Motives are not the determining factor; God’s word is! And he tells us very clearly what to be spending our time on.
You were wondering where I was getting the idea that sin causes us to want to do merely what doesn’t break the law. I was comparing this with Rom. 7 and how sin entices us to break the law. This new idea that I’ve suggested is not based out of Romans 7, but is my personal conviction. Here is my thinking behind it: Satan wants us to be less effective for God and so he has tried to distract us with things that aren’t wrong, but aren’t of eternal value. I think it’s sin within us that causes us to accept the lie that we are living a life pleasing to God as long as we aren’t breaking his commands. Now we know why the world doesn’t seem to hate the church in North America quite the way Jesus suggested it would. If we are not explicitly furthering the kingdom of God in our world we won’t be opposed by the world - we’ll be more comfortable and we won’t suffer. Sin expects a life of comfort, pleasure and no suffering; Right living will bring opposition. The world is happy if the church spends it’s time watching TV, rather then telling them the truth about their situation and about God.
You seemed concerned with my exegesis of 1 Cor. 6:12 and 1 Cor. 10:23-24. I realize that the context talks about sexual immorality, and that Paul is quoting a saying of the Corinthians. If you look closely though, the saying is “Everything is permissible for me”. That’s the saying in it’s entirety that the Corinthians often used. Paul then invalidates it saying, “but not everything is beneficial” and again, “but I will not be mastered by anything”. Paul is not agreeing with the original statement because the original statement says everything and Paul is giving a counter-example for why it’s not true since there are some things that are not beneficial of these “permissible” things. Paul is setting up his argument. And the following verses are not so much about sexual immorality as they are about the physical body. Paul’s main point is that the body is for the Lord, not merely for ourselves. That’s why Paul stresses that not everything is beneficial and we should not be mastered by anything, because when we give our bodies to sexual immorality, while it’s allowed by the world, it doesn’t benefit us or God or bring him glory in any way. You mentioned that the context of 1 Cor. 10:23-24 argues against the point I was trying to make with the passage. You cited, “eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, for ‘the earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it’” (v. 25-26). But you failed to note the further context which fully explains the use of Paul’s quote. He goes on to explain that if you eat at someone’s house you should eat what is set before you without asking questions however if they tell you that it has been sacrificed to idols then do not eat it (vs. 27-30)! In other words, here is an example of when it’s permissible (when you don’t know if it’s sacrificed to idols) and here is an example of when it’s not constructive (when you know it is sacrificed to idols and you may cause your brother to stumble). The principle is the same! Not everything is permissible as the Corinthians say, because some things are not beneficial and constructive. This principle is a general one which we see because of Paul’s two different uses of it. And it applies to the way we use our time too! There are tonnes of things we can do with our time that are “permissible” but are not beneficial. We should aim to use our time (as our bodies) to please the Lord and to do his will (that which is beneficial/constructive).
You disagreed with the first lie: “we need to take time for ourselves”. In support you cited Matt. 14:13, 22-23. However, what Jesus is doing here is not “taking time for himself”. In fact he’s spending his time on God in prayer - and resting in him. That’s exactly what I’m saying…our time should be spent on only God and other people. Often this lie is used to justify wasting our time on fruitless activities. If you understand this lie to actually mean “we need to take time with God”, then I agree. Then let’s not use this deceiving round about way to refer to it.
You took issue with my emphasis in Matt. 11:28, about finding rest in Jesus. I acknowledge that the context is talking about salvation and how Jesus has not come to increase the load on our souls but to lighten it and give us rest. But the plain sense of the verse alone is that Jesus is the source of our rest. It’s Jesus’ truth and our relationship with him (prayer) that will enable us to truly rest spiritually and emotionally. And obviously we rest physically in our beds :). My intention was not to diminish the importance of rest but to call people on the lie that rest is what gives us pleasure and makes us feel good. No, rest is from God and we ought to seek rest in him and in our beds to God’s glory. When we keep well-rested in God and physically we are most effective for God and we will not burn out! This is God’s grace which sustains us to do the work he’s called us to do.
You suggest that God intended to give us rest through his creation much in the same way that he intended for us to grow through the Body of believers. Well, the comparison doesn’t quite work since we live in a fallen world and creation is marred, creation does not have the indwelling Holy Spirit and is not united to Christ as our fellow members of the Body of Christ are. Realistically, how does seeing a mountain give us rest spiritually? It doesn’t. But when we engage with God as we look at mountains, we may find rest. So I would concede that God uses creation as a catalyst to draw us into his rest, because it is revelation and moves us to engage with the one who created it. But I don’t think the fallen mountain by itself has anything to do with our rest. After all, Romans 1 talks about what happens when we pursue the creation rather than the creator. The mountain doesn’t meet our needs, God does. On top of that, the things that we do to “rest” today are distinctly made by man to captivate our attention, not to turn our attention to God. It’s seems rather foolish to turn on the TV with the idea of resting in God through watching it. If anything, it distracts us from resting in God; even if we feel better afterward, not to mention that we are bombarded with the ways of the world.
You mentioned that my example was ironic while using face-book, internet, e-mail to accomplish this very task. You’re right there is irony there! But please see that I am not saying that all temporary things are inherently evil. I am merely saying that our time and our lives should be spent on what is eternal. And often the most effective way to accomplish that is through temporary things like face-book and internet. Through this temporary means of communication we are having a discussion that is hopefully impacting us in eternal ways. I know I am being impacted simply by writing this and some of you have thanked me already. This conversation would not have been possible without temporary things, but my heart for this was not filling a weekly blog post but sharpening each other as we discuss the truth of God which is eternally important. We ought to see the temporary things as vehicles for achieving the mission God has given us here on earth. We should never pursue the vehicles and then try to figure out how to fit it into God’s mission for us. Some of these vehicles are more effective than others, and we ought to spend our lives on eternal purposes and use the most effective temporal vehicles to get there!
Lastly, Jason, you seemed to react a little to my comment at the end, “Be willing to throw your junk in the garbage because it’s going to end up worse off anyways.” The thing I intended to emphasize here is be willing…The temporary things of this world that you have are for God’s purposes and for his glory. Yet we fall in love with the things he gives us and forget about him even though he is forever and these things will fade. I’m not saying you shouldn’t look for ways to use the stuff you already have for God. But can I ask a question, “If God told you to throw it in the fire right now, would you have a problem with it? If you would, then you need to examine where your eternal purpose has broken down to a temporal one. Good stuff man! It’s been good to think through! Caroline, I have a response coming to yours as well :). Let me end with this (and yes I’ve looked at the context…it couldn’t be more fitting):
Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. Matt. 6:19-21
I like this; I think the more we interact with these passages and ideas, the closer we'll come to discover what God's will is, and what exactly He wants us to do. So again, I'll go through your comment top to bottom, and I'm gonna mostly bring up arguements.
You caught me, I didn't look up the context for 1 Peter 4:7. But I'm glad to hear that you just included this passage to say time is short... I did mention that I thought it was still ok to use this verse. v8 is also quite interesting: "Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins". It slightly refers back to the two greatest commandments. But yet we should notice that the things that pagans were spending their time on were not just 'unprofitable', they were blatant sins. I'm going to comment a bit on this later, so hold on!
You opened my eyes to the first part of 2 Peter 3:12... I didn't really see the 'speed its coming' part, or at least I haven't thought about it deeply. First, I asked myself whether we CAN actually speed the day of the Lord. I was pretty sure it was a set time and day. Second, I asked myself, "If we can speed the day of the Lord, how do we do so?" Unfortunately for you, there's a footnote that would change the passage's wording to: "as you wait eagerly for the day of God to come". No action... just waiting actually. So that verse needs some Greek study. And if it's better said the other way, then I disagree that the way we speed the day of the Lord is by bringing to repentance. The context's emphasis is on living holy lives, not evangelism. Of course, there's nothing wrong with helping bring people to repentance, it's just not nearly as important as living holy lives! That's all I'm trying to say with that.
I must say my eyes widened when I saw that you challenged the fact that it comes down to motive and motivation, but I definitely see what you're trying to say, lol. I thought you were going to say that it had to do with action, not motivation, or something like that. But you're right, we should have it in our minds first to glorify God. I looked back at my post to see if I was saying something different, and I saw that I needed to clarify what I wrote. What I was trying to say is that reading, listening to music, and earning diplomas are not wrong, and should not be equated with godliness. We are able to do these things. I even believe that we are able to do things that do not seem have a lot of profit, such as video games. I may have to explain that later, but I want to refute a somewhat common belief, and this is perhaps the belief you're struggling with. It has to do with how we view God in relationship with us. Some people see God as a strict Father, even a military commander or a harsh boss, wanting us to do exactly what He wants us to do all the time, and whatever we want to do is sin. Maybe that's an extreme view, but this view has been pushed with analogies such as "let God have the driver's seat in your life," etc. We forget that He is a loving, gracious Father, and sometimes He merely wants us to do what WE want to do! The thing that would bring HIM the most joy is the exact thing that bring US the most joy, simply because it is what would bring us the most joy. Is this sounding heretical? Sometimes we get so caught up wondering, "God, what do you want me to do? Should I read your Bible right now? Should I go out in the streets and evangelize? Should I read a book?" God may simply be answering, like a father, "Son, what do YOU want to do?" There are definitely times that God asks us to do something for Him, but we forget the other side of grace. This whole concept, by the way, comes from Dave McPhee, sharing what he had been learning about his relationship with God by being a Father. Imagine being a Father and having a son who always wanted to please you. A lot of the time, you simply want to let your son choose what HE wants to do. Let me know what you think about that.
Finally moving on to the next part about making ourselves the standard by which we measure what is a valuable use of time and what isn't. This is interesting... it partially relates to what I just wrote, and it also relates to that article, "How is the Bible Authoritative?" But I'm going to give an immediate answer now, and we'll probably have to discuss this a lot more. First of all, I do believe that if our motive is truly based on loving God and loving others, we will be doing things with eternal value. Look at your statement! "A brand spanking new Christian can have a desire to please and glorify God with what he does and be spending all of his time doing something that has little or no eternal value." You just made yourself the standard of what a valuable use of time is!!! And then when you wrote that God's word is the determining factor, I just had to think about that other article, and the example of our lives living out the fifth act. If this is the case, then it is NOT clear what we should be spending our time on. All we know is that we are to have a heavenly perspective by loving God and others. The Bible does NOT tell us to do exactly this and that, but not that. I think this part of the conversation is going to need a whole lot more words written.
In due time.
Moving on... I do think you're right that Satan wants to distract us with things that are not of eternal value. I think we need to be careful when we say that it's a lie that we are living a life pleasing to God as long as we aren't breaking his commands. For one thing, we're placing ourselves as judge again, judging which lives are pleasing and aren't pleasing to God. Second, I think one is doing pretty good if they aren't breaking God's commands! Third, let's be careful about saying there's a 'higher path of spirituality', when really, there's only one path. Although it does remind me of a t-shirt I once owned, which said, "Why survive when you can thrive?" That may be the idea you're getting at here.
With the 1 Cor. 6:12 passage, my point is that, again, Paul was pointing out blatant sin, not simply things that may or not be beneficial. Sexual immorality is DEFINITELY not beneficial (or permissable). So it's tough to use this passage for things that are not sin. My point with 1 Cor. 10:23-24 was (of course) that we don't need to raise questions of conscience with things we do. Your explanation of the rest of the context was fine, but perhaps your application to today isn't; again, "How is the Bible Authoritative" comes to mind. I'm still going through that article by the way, slowly and methodically.
With Matt. 14:13, 22-23, we don't actually know if Jesus was praying in v13, but with the other verses, fair enough (even if he maybe didn't use the whole time to pray). But what if we use the rest of Jesus' life, when he was not in ministry? Jesus was a carpenter... surely there were times when he took time for himself. Carpentry is not really a job with a whole lot of interaction.
On a smaller issue, I have a bit of trouble saying that a mountain, or the ocean, is fallen. I guess just because I get to see them all the time, they just seem so perfect compared to anything else. The only thing that ever seems 'fallen' about them is when people get involved; clear-cutting, littering, oil spills, etc. I took a look at Rom. 8:19-22 which describes creation waiting in expectation, and part of it reads, "in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay..." I wonder if the only decay creation experiences is from man's doing. Anyways, something to think about. And you're right, we should be looking to the Creator, not the creation, and creation may well be God's catalyst and revelation to us... though it may also be more (thinking of Rom. 8 again, and also Kipp Wilson's lecture about the resurrection of our bodies).
And yea, about throwing stuff in the garbage... I wanted to provide a little optimism to that statement, lol, but I agree with you, although sometimes it's hard to see us throwing away things that could be used for God's glory. That's it for now; good verse btw (Matt. 6:19-21), that's one of my favorites. Write ya later!
Roomie and Jason,
I love you both dearly. Remember that.
God wants us to develop our minds, and you both are certainly using technical arguments here. But don't forget that many epistles were written to fledgling churches, telling *them* to develop their minds.
So allow me to interject with some information on the philosophical and doctrinal issues in Mozambican churches. Many pastors cannot read. Most own no Bible. Sermons are often shallow at best. There is no theology or doctrine taught.
Churches here struggle with basic Bible: who were the Jews, where was Abraham called to, what was the temple for, why is it wrong to commit adultery? They have no ability to pursue theology, because they have almost zero foundational knowledge of Scripture. They need to be taught Bible. Basic Bible.
Now put yourself into my shoes, having just learned of these basic yet vital problems. Scroll down the length of your arguments. You have pages upon pages. Calculate how much time you've put into developing them.
Does God want us to become wise? Yes. But can the pursuit of wisdom take precedence over our pursuit of God? Do you wish to minister to others or to argue well? Are you actually doing it "for God," as you've written countless times?
It seems to me that both of you have overstated your case and forgotten your own advice: spend your time wisely.
With much love and an arm around you both,
Derek
Caroline! I really appreciate that you have taken the time to read my post and engage in the discussion. It seems that we are growing together as we discuss some of these things! There are a couple things that I wanted to comment on after reading your comments.
You mentioned that you often forget that “it is God who is doing the work, not me”. I’m not exactly sure what you mean by this. I know that there are some people who adamantly attribute all the work to God to the extent of denying their own participation with God. This kind of runs along with the not so uncommon idea that we need to constantly be getting out of the way of God in our lives so that he can really accomplishes his purpose in us. I think the whole message and flow of the Bible is pretty clear, however, that we as the people of God have been given a major role to play. Unfortunately some go to the other extreme of emphasizing their role to the exclusion of God’s but as you said there must certainly be a balance. As I have been stressing with my previous comments, all of the ways that we spend our time ought to be aimed at participating with God in his plan.
And you’re right on in saying that we need to take time to rest (“down time”). Rest has been part of God’s plan from day 7! The Bible seems to emanate an underlying wisdom in taking these “sabbaths” to rest. And while a Sabbath is for the rest of people, its focus seems very much centered on the Lord. God’s eternal purposes in our lives are best lived out when we are well rested. To paraphrase Isa. 40: 30-31: Even youths grow tired and weary, and young men stumble and fall; but those who wait upon the Lord will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint.
The last thing I wanted to comment on was the idea you expressed that temporary things are not inherently evil; it’s what you do with them. You’re absolutely right! You referred to how you react when someone dings your car. That’s exactly the heartbeat behind my post – that we have the right perspective towards temporary things; not that we need to shun them and avoid them all together, but that we need to recognize that they are susceptible to moth and rust and thieves (Matt. 6: 19-21) and will not be around forever; and to see that God has called us to live lives that are eternally focused in a world that will soon pass away.
Thanks so much for sharing about your realization of how God has not called you to affect the whole world by yourself, but to do your part along with all the rest of his people. That’s really encouraging for me; I sometimes feel as though it is all up to me which I guess is more of a pride issue than anything else. At the same time we have to hope that others will in fact do their part so that we will not feel the need to fill in in places where we were never supposed to be.
You mentioned you had more thoughts about defining rest. Please share! I know I and others would love to listen and continue to work through these kinds of things in our lives.
Joshua
Derek! My roomie! You found your way on here. I was thinking of you today. We heard from a couple that our church supports from Niger today and we had lunch with a lady who is originally from Zambia.
In both instances I was very encouraged to hear what God is doing. I have heard a lot about the need for discipleship post conversion in these places yet the lack of people equipped or trained to do it. Today, however, was very refreshing as I listened to the vision of the couple our church supports and how they are moving ahead in a plan to establish local centers for Christian education in Niger, and I was especially excited about their first step of opening a school to train teachers for this in Fall of 2009.
And the lady we ate lunch with today from Zambia told us about her own experience with discipling others back there as well as the discipleship programs that her local church does with new believers. I was overjoyed to hear that some of the many who are totally open to Jesus and his story are pressing forward in their faith with the help of experienced disciple-makers.
At one point during our lunch time conversation, everybody just got quiet and she was talking. She said something most profound! She told us about the day when she realized that her life’s purpose was to help build the Kingdom of God, and that she regretted all the time she had wasted doing other things, and how relieved she was that she did not continue to spend her life on some of her fruitless dreams.
I was thinking, WOW! She just hit the nail on the head as far as the kind of things I have been thinking and learning about. How incredible! From a completely different country and language and everything and here she is telling me about how God taught her an important lesson that I am learning too.
Derek, I can imagine what it must be like looking back in on North America, especially the church in North America with what you’re experiencing over there. Oh how I wish I could see our church and myself from the eyes of a completely foreign church.
This is partly what I aimed to do with writing this post originally. I want to challenge myself and others to see what we are like here in North America with our stuff and with our lifestyles. There is deep deception going on here that has been culturally ingrained into our thinking about the stuff we have (or want to have) and the practices of our week. How do I know? The Bible tells me so. That’s part of the reason for such “heated” discussion. There are actually sparks flying in our minds! There are ideas clashing and smashing together. At the end of it all, we hope to see ourselves and our world as God sees us – according to the true reality of God’s word. Every second of time I spent in walking through these passages while writing my post and my comments has been time eternally spent not just for my benefit but for the benefit of those in whom I invest my life.
In response to your questions, it is my wish to minister to others by handling scripture and language well. I by no means wish to try and convince people of God’s truth and how it applies to our lives using poor arguments. Rather I hope that the arguments put forth have given all who are reading a chance to live in the passages of God’s word and wrestle with both truth and its application in our lives. If this has not brought eternal benefit than you are right, we have wasted our time…but I am confident that it has and will to those who are eager to learn together in humility.
Joshua
Well, my dear friends, I hate to join the discussion late, but I wanted to express my thoughts in brief.
Balance, focus and discretion. Before defining what it particularly entails, I think we all must agree that none of us want to "waste our lives." Also, I think that we would all agree that to not waste our lives we must glorify God to the best of our abilities.
Now how does that fit in with rest, computer games, reading, hobbies, relationships and such? Will, I think for every individual, and for those who hold that individual accountable, it takes balance, focus, and discretion. First, as Caroline and Jason have expressed, there is nothing inherently evil about the preoccupations of this world. All is permissible, but not all is beneficial. Therefore, when we approach an evaluation of our lives, we must have an eye to allow things in life to simply be things in life. We were designed to live regular life on earth, and we should not condemn regular life on earth.
Having said that, second we need focus. Being fallen creatures in a fallen world assaulted by the deception of a fallen angel, we must continually remind ourselves that we will one day die, that life is a vapor, and that our purpose is to glorify God and build his kingdom.
Third, at this point, we must develop discretion to see what in our lives is focused, and what is not focused. I give an example: I have a great affinity for pointless war games. However, as I look with discretion that though it is not sin, it is not glorifying to God and neither builds my character nor resolve to follow God, and in fact detracts from time spent in the word or prayer. On the other hand, I am reading a Novel, Oliver Twist, which is a well written book that challenges my conceptions of humanity and depravity, and also encourages me to glorify god through developing my skills at literary art. These I can use for the kingdom and are a healthy way to rest.
Within the body of Christ then, we must continually aid each other in promoting a balanced view of the world, a focus on our purpose, and the discretion to make kingdom lifestyle choices.
Love you all, Josh.
P.S. This is a theory, and I by no means hold to this opinion as absolute.
Wonderful, Joshua (I mean both of you)! So long as I triggered thoughts in your mind, my comments were not in vain, and therefore I did not waste my time writing them. Furthermore they showed you attention and related with you, a crucial part of relationship--how we were created to emulate God's character and relate with each other in the first place.
Furthermore I am glad that you read it with a gracious heart. I realized after posting it that perhaps my final comment was somewhat abrasive.. But was unable to change it at all due to a dead internet. Ah well.
Good discussing these things, all I meant is that to some peoples' perspective we might be splitting hairs while they're still not sure if Jesus is even God. You know what I mean.. Love you too.
wow, this is fascinating. Our time and our thoughts are our most valuable resources that God has given us and so I think there is a very pertinent and apt discussion. I have to go to greek class now but i will read through everything and comment soon. Thanks for sending me this link Josh.
All right, I finally read through all of the comments. You have quite some theological friends Josh :). I really like this discussion, and there are a few things that I would like to say to add a little bit of my perspective to the pot.
First off, the heart of the message I agree 100% with. Let us throw off everything that hinders and run the race with perseverance. All these little distractions, will ultimately cause us to fall short of the grand calling that God has placed on each of our lives. At my bible college I live with seven guys and we got rid of the tv right off the bat and really all the majoy distractions and it's been really amazing to me how much I have been able to accomplish with simply less distractions around.
Secondly your thoughts on entering God's rest I totally agree with. The only way to stop burnout is not so much to sleep more but to really spend that time getting refreshed in God's presence and enjoying him. I believe that that is the rest that Jesus was talking about. Honestly, sometimes working at camp with wild young campers in my time off I just want to go to sleep but when I choose to just enjoy God's presence for an hour instead I leave feeling so refreshed and in love with everyone around me. It changes our entire perspective and attitude toward the world around us.
Now the only thing that I disagree with Josh is the style or genre of the way you presented your thoughts. You clearly showed what the biblical standard is, and how your readers probably aren't living up to it. There were definitely sections of exhortation and encouragement but it seemed more like condemnation. The more I read the bible it seems that God always speaks first to identity which is at the root of the problem and then if he needs to he will address the problem. This might be a radical hypothesis but let me explain.
When Jesus was teaching the sermon on the mount before telling everybody how far below his standard they were he showed them their identity
you are the light of the world
you are the salt of the earth
you are a city on a hill.
And in the beatitudes he showed them the realms of possibility when they walked in Kingdom principles. It is only when people realize who they are that they can walk as they should.
Paul also completely modeled this. If you read Ephesians, pretty much the whole first chapter is establishing their identity before getting at any of their problems which are only really the symptoms of not understanding who they are. He says
you are adopted in love
you are sons of God
you are seated in the heavenly places
you are chosen
you are predestined
and on and on he goes. It is so fundamental to him that a proper understanding of who we are will lead to proper actions. Even Ephesians 2 he shows who they were and then who they are. Dead in sin, alive in Christ. In Romans 6-8 this is also very evident, Paul showing them that they are already crucified so they now need to count themselves "dead to sin, but alive to Christ".
All that to say that I think writing a post to show us how we are not measuring up can be a very good thing but we need to at least start out by showing how much potential we have. Show each person the incredible calling that God has on their life to be a worldchanger. If you can show them the magnitude of what Jesus has already done to redeem them and what he can do through them. Then when you finally get to what they are missing out on. Our use of time isn't the central issue but rather our misunderstanding of how important our lives are and every minute that God has given.
Until we understand the greatness that God has put in each of us I believe that a message like this will only make us feel guilty and try to improve through will-power and self-condemnation.
So hopefully you can understand where I am coming from. If I am totally heretical please let me know. But this has really changed my life. Understanding how God sees me and who I am in him. Let me know what you think.
David! Thank you for your comments! I really appreciate what you said about how the Biblical pattern of correction is to remind people of their identity and then show them the action that must result from that identity. You are absolutely right with regards to Paul’s patterns in his letters.
Part of the reason I wrote the way I did was because it seems as though the church in North America in general knows that they are citizens of heaven and that they ought to be living as such, but either have not understood what this means or have not been willing to submit to this Word from God. I would be surprised if anyone reading this has not read these verses, heard at least one sermon on it, or spent some time thinking about them. I also realize that we all still have sin living in us and need to be strongly confronted with the truth of God and given opportunity to accept it or reject it.
But you are absolutely right about identity, and how there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. I apologize to all my readers for presenting the truth in a condemning way. You are my brothers and sisters in the Lord, and what I want to do is call sin sin and help you to see how God sees us and the things we do, especially with regard to our time. I hope that as a result of my message you would be able to join with me in putting to death whatever belongs to our old sinful nature more effectively than we have before. Just as God has commanded us to be holy as he is holy, I long to answer that call with my own living and to do it together with you.
I have revised my original post, reworded, removed, and added certain things to make it better fit its intention in love.
I have especially appreciated all of your comments. You have helped bring biblical balance to my original post. And now that we are all comfortably balanced :) I want to bring one more passage of Scripture to the mix:
Are you married? Do not seek a divorce. Are you unmarried? Do not look for a wife. But if you do marry you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this. What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none; those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something as if it were not theirs to keep; those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away.
1 Corinthians 7:26-31
Seem like an unbalanced perspective? They are God’s words not mine :).
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